I don't intend this to be a FIRE HERB battle in any way. I'm actually being serious here w/ this query.

Many people have talked about the offensive scheme we play, and, from what I gather, the general consensus is that this scheme is great for teams that aren't the most athletic. As in, it works great for mid-majors who can't recruit the best, but who generally recruit decent players who have a good mind for the game. It certainly throws the other team's game down and all of the motion can be confusing.

I've never seen a big-time team implement this scheme though, which makes me wonder if it "works" for more athletic teams. As in, could you take UNC's players from last year and put them in this system and be successful? More importantly, could you be more successful?

If the answer to that question is "no," then why do we run it? It seems to me that a school should want to recruit the best players. That being the case, why would you implement a system which isn't tailored to such players? I could understand running it initially at a program so as to give yourself a stable foundation and to make a name as a coach, but implementing it after you have established something at a relatively big name school seems to be counter-productive.

If the answer, however, is "yes," then why hasn't a big time program adopted (sans us)? Why hasn't K or Roy used it? I know why the NBA doesn't use it (gotta have smart and unselfish players), but certainly a big-name college coach could use it effectively.

Its obvious that Sendek is an intelligent man, and its obvious that he is a respectable coach (ahhhh, watch it!), but its hard for me to understand why he implements a system which seems to work best with less than top notch players...

1/11/2006 10:50:10 AM

well Herb's generally philosphy is to run the "princeton style" offense with more athletic and skilled players. this is how he got the job in the first place. if a team like princeton or air force can have sucess imagine what a high major school can do with higher quality recruits.

FWIW, we run the floor more than any team that runs this offense

[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 10:56 AM. Reason : 5]

1/11/2006 10:53:37 AM

Quote :

"the general consensus is that this scheme is great for teams that aren't the most athletic"

just remember...the general consensus is made by a bunch of 20 year olds who are drunk at all the games...the general consensus doesnt mean shit

as far as other teams being able to run it (for example UNC last year) they couldnt do it...not because it wouldnt work, but because thats not the type of players they had...it takes time to teach the system, and you have to have the system in place for awhile so the older guys who know they system could teach the younger guys...it takes smarter than average players...dont forget we still always look for the backdoor cut and the steal in the passing lanes to run a break

you dont see Peyton Manning airing it out all 4th quarter when they have a big lead...we dont have to take shots with 30 seconds left on the shot clock

1/11/2006 10:54:07 AM

Plus, if you've been paying any kind of attention at all, our offense is constantly evolving, and moving further and further away from anything resembling a "Princeton" Offense.

1/11/2006 10:56:13 AM

Exactly. The PO doesn't score ~80 points a game..

1/11/2006 10:57:01 AM

umm, his offense is based on Pitino's. I think Pitino has won a couple of games.

He was waiting to iplement some of the faster paced elements of the offense until he had more athletic guys who could run it. If you have watched games this year, you have noticed that our offense is more uptempo. We are pushing the ball up the court and trying to get quick shots. We are still working within the offense put players are looking for their shots more and we are feeding the post more than we ever have under Sendek

Quote :

"It seems to me that a school should want to recruit the best players."

Well that is true. But if you arent UNC, Duke, UConn, Kentucky or Zona, that is easier said then done. Herb has brought in 3 McD's AA's, now two of them were basically busts here but he got them to come. Once it becomes evident that you cant get the BEST playersk, you try to get the best players for your system, at which i think Herb has done a good job.

1/11/2006 10:57:53 AM

Quote :

"If the answer to that question is "no," then why do we run it?"

because.....

Quote :

"it works great for mid-majors the 3rd or 4th best team in the state, who can't recruit the best, but who generally recruit decent players who have a good mind for the game."

Quote :

"It seems to me that a school should want to recruit the best players."

that would be terrific, but we all know we aren't on top of the best players' lists.

1/11/2006 10:59:05 AM

^^
Pretty much.

Over time our offense is starting to look more "normal" as it is incorporating a style of play more suited to athletic players.

That being said, our ability to retain a nice perimeter game with good ball movement and cutting for easy baskets......I think you will like where we are ten years from now if Herb stays.

1/11/2006 11:01:01 AM

^^^^exactly. That started with Scooter Sherrill and continues with Cam, Fells, Larry Davis and Chris Wright. Not to mention the recruitment of athletic big men (Powell, Simmons, Costner) that most "princeton-style" teams dont have.


[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 11:07 AM. Reason : s]

1/11/2006 11:01:51 AM

Yeah, this team will never recruit a 5 star PG top 25 talent!

1/11/2006 11:03:57 AM

Quote :

"Herb has brought in 3 McD's AA's, now two of them were basically busts here but he got them to come."

Actually 4: Scooter Sherrill, Damien Wilkins, Julius Hodge, and Brandon Costner.

And I wouldn't call Wilkins and Sherrill busts. Im assuming those are the two you are talking about. Wilkins was a good but not great player here and is in the NBA now. Scooter started his last 2 years and was a leader on the team, but he wasn't a bust. Costner may turn out to be good if he gets healthy.

1/11/2006 11:04:17 AM

^^
who said anything about that?



[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

1/11/2006 11:04:17 AM

Quote :

"Larry King"

Its Larry Davis FYI.

EDIT: Larry King playing basketball. LOL.

[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 11:06 AM. Reason : King]

1/11/2006 11:05:39 AM

Especially now that we nabbed that PG....how can you not be optimistic?

1/11/2006 11:06:02 AM

ahha of course i foget costner

and wilkins success in the nba goes to show more that he was bust here. scoot came on, but he never played like you would expect an mcd's AA to play

the fact that he didnt get significant PT until his jr year shows that.

1/11/2006 11:06:17 AM

Quote :

"Its Larry Davis FYI. "

I just shortened Larry Davis from Christ the King

1/11/2006 11:08:23 AM

as a side note, Lonnie Baxter and Juan Dixon werent highly recruited and I think they won a few games and they both play in the nba actually...although Lonnie Baxter fouled out last night

1/11/2006 11:08:38 AM

god i hated lonny baxter so much
he used to KILL us

1/11/2006 11:10:46 AM

him and may played us similarly...they would just knock us down and get all the calls...but like i said, baxter didnt get all the calls last night!

1/11/2006 11:11:22 AM

Quote :

"But if you arent UNC, Duke, UConn, Kentucky or Zona, that is easier said then done. Herb has brought in 3 McD's AA's, now two of them were basically busts here but he got them to come."

From 2000 on NC State has had as many or more Mcdonalds AAs than UConn, Syracuse, Maryland, and Arizona

Here is a quick breakdown of some big time teams since 2000.

UNC Total: 8

2001: Jawad Williams (1)
2002: Felton, McCants, May (3)
2004: Marvin Williams (1) ** interestingly he is listed under NC State
2005: Frasor, Green, Hansbrough (3)

Duke Total: 11

2000: Duhon (1)
2001: Ewing (1)
2002: Redick, Williams, Dockery, Randolph (4)
2003: Deng (1)
2004: Nelson (1)
2005: McRoberts, Paulus, Boetang (3 - although Boetang may very well be the worst player ever to play in the McD's AA game)

UConn Total: 3
2000: Taleik Brown (1)
2003: Villanueva (1)
2004: Gay (1)

Arizona Total : 3

2002: Hassan Adams (1)
2003: Shakur (1)
2004: McClellan (1)

Maryland Total: 2

2002: Travis Garrison (1)
2003: Mike Jones (1)

Syracuse Total: 2

2002: Carmelo Anthony (1)
2005: Devendorf (1)

NC State Total: 3

2000: Scooter (1)
2001: Hodge (1)
2005: Costner (1)

We aren't doing to bad in that respect given some of the other high profile teams who have made Final 4's and won championships in that timeframe

[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 11:16 AM. Reason : f]

1/11/2006 11:15:31 AM

hahahaha

Randolph

1/11/2006 11:18:56 AM

Quote :

"Trin. Valley Community College (1) Shawn Kemp (1988), Orlando Magic"

My personal favorite. On a related note, I saw skimming through the channels a few days ago and a Slam Dunk contest from the early 90's was on and the announcers called Kemp 'an engaging and all around good kid.' I'm guessing this was before the cocaine addiction and the 87 kids by 45 women.

1/11/2006 11:23:00 AM

Scooter didn't start playing D until his junior year, which is why his playing time went down. You notice that Herb wants the total package not the flash on offense. Until recently Coach K ran a team style offense but since the Corey Maggette days thats changed. We don't run the PO we run the NC State offense, it mirrors the PO a little bit but its not the same. We recruit shooters not dunkers and layup artists, just about everybody on our team has a decent mid-range jumpshot and most of them can shoot the tre. We have athletes, see Cam's dunk last night, people have given up on Gavin but I see greatness in him, right now he doesn't have confidence in his shot, once he gets that he will be a slasher much like Hodge was.

1/11/2006 11:27:26 AM

the point everyone is missing is that nc state has no name-value. duke and carolina and big-name schools like that turn down better recruits that we would normally have even consider us.

what sendek did was run an offense that features big men with more talent than just dunking the ball from the post (brackman, melvin, powell, evtimov, etc). this is only one aspect of our offense, of course, but it attracts top recruits at those positions with a lot of talent who would be forced into a lesser role anywhere else. they have the oppurtunity to do more at nc state and therefore we get better recruits.

with the better recruits, we start winning more games and get recognition that helps us land more recruits at other positions. players WANT to play in this system. you might not like it as an ignorant fan, but our system is the REASON we get these good recruits. we wouldn't get a lot of these guys without it. just look at our most recent committment in chris wright. he likes our offense.

1/11/2006 11:27:40 AM

Spread Style is what it is being coined now

1/11/2006 11:28:01 AM

I think we should switch to a West Coast offense.

1/11/2006 11:36:43 AM

Pass Heavy

1/11/2006 11:44:55 AM

5 wide recievers?

1/11/2006 11:46:09 AM

Quote :

"our offense is constantly evolving"

exactly.

the "Princeton" style may have laid the foundation, but this is clearly becoming an "NC State" offense

1/11/2006 12:01:06 PM

jwb9984 I was responding to your post.

Quote :

"we all know we aren't on top of the best players' lists."

Which is obviously not the case anymore.

1/11/2006 12:07:41 PM

The idea that the Princeton offense is for less athletic players is itself a mistake.

It can be good for less athletic teams, to draw up plays that get around the defense without requiring 1-on-1 isolation. But with more athletic players, it can also be used to open up the floor and create more 1-on-1 opportunities. The term "Princeton offense" is actually very bad wording, because it's not really an offense, it's a different way of thinking about the game. It doesn't refer to any particular sets, just the idea of swingmen, motion and constant triple-threat opportunities.

So we do use some Princeton principles, but we don't really run what would traditionally be considered a "Princeton offense" precisely because our players are better.

1/11/2006 12:26:06 PM

Quote :

"I've never seen a big-time team implement this scheme though, which makes me wonder if it "works" for more athletic teams. As in, could you take UNC's players from last year and put them in this system and be successful? More importantly, could you be more successful? If the answer to that question is "no," then why do we run it? It seems to me that a school should want to recruit the best players. That being the case, why would you implement a system which isn't tailored to such players? I could understand running it initially at a program so as to give yourself a stable foundation and to make a name as a coach, but implementing it after you have established something at a relatively big name school seems to be counter-productive. If the answer, however, is "yes," then why hasn't a big time program adopted (sans us)? Why hasn't K or Roy used it? I know why the NBA doesn't use it (gotta have smart and unselfish players), but certainly a big-name college coach could use it effectively."

Dumbass.

New Jersey Nets and Sacramento Kings run it. THe Hornets and Wizards are in the middle of implementing it. Heck, Detroit and the Mavs aren't far from it. There are far more teams in the NCAA running it than you realize.

1/11/2006 12:52:25 PM

If we can keep getting players like costner and chris wright i think that you will see the offense evolve more and more into what louisville plays.

IM SO FREAKING HAPPY WE GOT WRIGHT!!!

1/11/2006 1:35:39 PM

one of the perceived advantages of getting good recruits who arent exactly top recruits is keeping them around...with the NBA's age limit UNC, Duke, etc will get some players that would normally go straight to the pros...they will only keep many of them for 1 year, but we should be able to get talent that stays around for longer

1/11/2006 1:38:23 PM

i was just lookin over our 2007 targets and we are top 3 on Nate McMillians son, Jamelle. Hopefully Nate's NC State ties will help us land our second big guard of that class.

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=178&p=8&c=1&nid=1819781

1/11/2006 1:47:01 PM

Bobby Knight has always run a "motion offense", but somehow got away from the "princeton" label, probably because he would eat whoever called it that.

1/11/2006 1:48:05 PM

Our offense last night against BC was I think very far from a Princeton offense....i don't remember for sure but I recall very few baskets scored off of backdoor cuts which is one of the cornerstones of the "Princeton" offense

And regarding Chris Wright, he could be a player that completely changes our offensive philosophy. He could be a Jason Williams (the one from Duke) type player for us. It is unfair to compare him to Williams at this point obviously but I have seen him play a couple of times and that was the name that popped into my head when I watched him. He is a scoring point guard, can push the ball extremely well, and is also a decent passer.

1/11/2006 1:48:38 PM

^Can he play D? Cause if he cant, he'll never see the floor for Sendek...just ask Courtney Fells about that.

1/11/2006 1:52:26 PM

slackerb:

Quote :

"jwb9984 I was responding to your post."

Quote :

"Which is obviously not the case anymore."

you know exactly what i was saying. while obviously we can and do land talented players, we are not at the same level as duke and carolina. landing wright is great, but duke and carolina can basically pick and choose among THE BEST players in the nation. that's not the case for us.



[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 1:55 PM. Reason : ..]

1/11/2006 1:53:13 PM

It is sometimes hard to measure a guard's d in high school that is better than his competition b/c they can slack off and still look fine b/c of superior athletic ability. He didn't look bad defensively. As long as he buys into Herb's s system there is no reason why he can't be a good defender. He certainly has the athletic ability to be a good defender.

1/11/2006 1:59:55 PM

i hope Fells gets motivated to improve his game instead of giving up and transferring...that kid can leap like Bennerman

1/11/2006 2:03:14 PM

With regard to recruiting, a player's high school value is somewhat mis-leading. Take Evtimov for example. As a freshman, he was considered one of the worst newcomers in the ACC (I have read and heard this multiple times - don't have a source though). Yet he has developed into one of the best all around players thanks in part to Herb's system. Getting big recruits is great, but getting recruits that will work well in our offense is as important IMO.

1/11/2006 2:13:59 PM

^IMO? in all coaches' opinions too, you're on point with that one

1/11/2006 2:15:41 PM

Quote :

"we are not at the same level as duke and carolina. landing wright is great, but duke and carolina can basically pick and choose among THE BEST players in the nation. that's not the case for us."

Um, NO ONE in the county recruits on Duke or UNCs level. Not Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona, UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, or anyone. Those programs make do with what they get. UNC and Duke will always get the pick of the litter. Frankly, if it's all about National Championships Duke and UNC don't get as much out of their recruiting classes as a lot of other schools..

1/11/2006 2:23:27 PM

DURR, and that's the point.

if NO ONE, not UK, not UCONN, etc... can recruit like them then we, being 20 minutes away, can't be expected to, as aaronburro suggested, "recruit the best players."

1/11/2006 2:29:29 PM

msb2ncsu is right Pete Carill the so called author of the PO was on the Sacto Kings staff a few years ago

1/11/2006 2:31:33 PM

pitching acc, great facilities and location would be alot better than pitching a unique offense. every good player cant go to unc or duke. if you had a school right near there in the same conference with better facilities and better playing time that would be a great recruiter in itself.

1/11/2006 2:55:43 PM

Maybe you should tell the Athletic department. I bet they never do that.

1/11/2006 3:30:31 PM

yea they prob dont even show them the rbc and only show them our non-conf schedule

plus when they come to visit, they are blindfolded so they wont know the location

1/11/2006 4:00:30 PM

we should offer commits free everything too

YOU CAN'T TURN THAT DOWN

1/11/2006 4:02:34 PM